Here is the long-awaited interview with Larry Crabb that he was gracious enough to grant to me at the Society for Christian Psychology conference a few weeks ago. It was conducted in a coffee shop, so it took a while to sort through all the miscellaneous noises.
Nate: I’ve heard people refer to the early Larry Crabb and the later Larry Crabb… the old Crabb and the new Crabb. Has there been development in your thinking throughout your career, and if so, how would you describe it?
Dr. Crabb: I have been widely viewed as being very anthropocentric and very need-driven, because I used words that I wish I hadn’t used, words that miscommunicate, such as “needs” for ideas like “security” and “significance.” And then when I realized that people were hearing me in my earlier days, when I talked about needs… Well, I remember when I was teaching at a seminary and someone said to me, “Well, your problem is that you’re man-centered, you’re anthropocentric.” I said, “What are you talking about?! I think I’m God-centered. What do you mean?” And she said that I talked about how God is there to meet needs, and how it’s all about “me” and not about God. And when I realized that’s how I was being heard – and that’s not what I believe at all, and never have – I changed my semantics so I could communicate better. I talked about longings instead of needs, because I can’t imagine that anybody would argue that the human soul isn’t filled with longings and yearnings. Paul talked about how he was looking forward to the day when he would get to heaven. He would rather be there and not here. He’s using the language of longing for something that only God provides. My commitment from my earlier years on has been that whatever the deepest longings of the human heart really are, they really have to do with knowing God in a way that glorifies Him. I don’t see that as anthropocentric at all. But I changed my semantics to words like “longings” and “relationship” and “impact,” thinking that would be less offensive and more communicative… and that still didn’t work, because my earlier years are still viewed as being very anthropocentric, and I don’t think that I was, although in my less mature days – hopefully I’m a little more mature now – I can see how I might have been heard that way.
The shift that most people seem to think about when they think about “late Crabb” – which is not as big a shift as people tend to discern – began with Connecting. When I quit private practice – and this was in the middle 80’s – to teach in a seminary, my commitment was that counseling belongs in the local church. And I believed that after 10 years of private practice. And I thought that what I was offering people is what the Church ought to be offering people, because it’s what Christianity itself offers people. It’s not some technical thing called “psychotherapy.”
So that was early Crabb, and that’s also late Crabb, and I still believe that, so it’s not a shift at all. If there’s been a shift at all, it began with the book Connecting where I began to understand, I think, a little more clearly that the real power that does sometimes take place in the counseling setting has entirely to do with the quality and the nature of the relationship that’s offered, and the wisdom upon which it’s founded, and not upon techniques or psychological knowledge. At that point I got really involved in Trinitarian theology, and began to realize that at the core of biblical reality, and therefore final reality, there is relationality. I knew that I wanted to offer that kind of relationship in my counseling. And that made me more convinced than ever that community is the only place where real change takes place that glorifies God, and is not anthropocentric change, but is theocentric change. Change takes place in a certain kind of community.
And so that has become my focus over the last several years, and I think that there are two major theological inputs that have driven my later thinking. The first is Trinitarian theology, because it defines the nature of relationality, and defines what I want to see happening to somebody in counseling, therapy, spiritual direction, friendship, call it what you want… it’s all relationality. I want to answer the question, “What is a good relationship?” And we have our only model in the relationships among the trinity. I don’t fully understand that, and so I need to explore that and ponder that so that we become an answer to our Lord’s prayer, that we become one as they are one. The closer I come to that reality, the more power I have as a husband, counselor, father, etc. And the second theological stream that really got me going was new covenant theology… and I think I’m pretty balanced in that. I see a continuity in the covenants, in the sense that God’s character never changes, and that the law never changes, but only changes location: from the stone to the heart. And now the demands of God that are as strong and as absolute as they ever were, are now the desires of the regenerate heart. And so when I’m counseling people, my point is to not primarily hold people accountable, although there is a place for that, but to primarily release what God has already put within them for His glory.
So I think I’ve probably felt in earlier days a little more open to professionalism, and in my later days I’m much more communal. I really think this may be rather extreme, but I wonder if counseling should have ever been professionalized. I mean, is friendship professionalized? I think plumbing can be professionalized. I want my plumber to have a certificate of sorts that shows that he’s a professional plumber, and that he knows how to fix a leaky pipe. I want my surgeon to be professionalized because professionalism is legitimate where there is a body of knowledge that you can be adequately trained in that results in certain skills that can make a difference. And I don’t think that counseling is that way. I don’t think that there’s a body of knowledge… because with a body of knowledge, my lands, look at the field of psychology! The body of knowledge is contradictory with 300 different theories. That’s not a body of knowledge; that’s a body of confusion! So I don’t think it’s as much a body of knowledge that I can master, and become skillful in so that when you come and see me and I have a certificate on the wall that says that I’m a licensed therapist, or whatever I may be, that you can be certain that this body of knowledge is going to be skillfully applied to your needs. That works with dentists, plumbers, electricians, but not counselors. So I want to see counseling as belonging to the body of Christ in a very organic way. And that’s an emphasis that was in seminal form in my early days, but I think it’s become clearer, and I think the clarity is what people see as a shift.
Nate: In my context at Southern Seminary a lot of discussion has taken place about the nature of Christian counseling. Much of this has been cordial, but some of it hasn’t. How would you describe your contribution to discussions like this?
Dr. Crabb: I don’t understand why I’ve become a lightening rod. In some circles I have. But let me talk about the lighting rod in my contributions to the discussion, to the mess, to the confusion. I think that because I am a licensed clinical psychologist, the assumption is made that I don’t see the Bible as authoritative, and the assumption is made that I am smuggling the Trojan horse of secularism into the church. I’ve heard that said, and I think that’s entirely wrong. I don’t agree with that at all. For one thing, it’s not what I want to do. I don’t merely want to be biblical, I am determined to be biblical. I believe in the sufficiency of Scripture defined in a particular way. But I think my contribution to the discussion is to suggest that we begin with the Bible and stay with the Bible and end with the Bible in dealing with all non-organic problems—organic-problems need medicine, and I don’t really care whether my physician is a believer or a non-believer; I care that he’s a competent physician. I pray he becomes a Christian if he’s not, but in surgery I don’t really care about his theology. I care about his medical skill.
But I think my essential contribution to the counseling discussion is in hermeneutics. You can’t go to the Bible and find verses about anorexia, and as a result, people who want to stay biblical—and I do— but who have a limited hermeneutic, become very narrow when they find some application of the Bible to deal with problems the Bible doesn’t seem to directly address. I think that if we have a rich anthropology, a rich hamartiology, a rich pneumatology, and all these fancy words we have, then we will know how to “hermeneute.” We will know how to interpret scriptures so that we discover ways of thinking, and categories for understanding. When I deal with a homosexual, my concern is not only to say homosexuality is sinful, so stop it, and let me hold you accountable until you don’t do it anymore. Certainly that must be said; it’s a sin, so it shouldn’t continue, any more than adultery should, or pornography, or any thing else that is obviously sin. But they aren’t the root sin.
So my concern is to say to the homosexual, “What did God have in mind when he created them man and female, and let’s explore the essence of masculinity. Let’s find where your terror of not feeling alive as a man has resulted in your clenched fisted determination to find some kind of satisfaction as a man without taking the risk of manhood, which then makes you vulnerable to homosexuality.” Let’s explore these deeper issues, which in my mind is not “psychology,” but are very biblical, because God made them male and female. And God wants us to unpack scripture and to interpret scripture in a way that doesn’t result in a proof-text, and not in a bunch of principles—do this, and don’t do that—but an enriched, deep understanding of what is happening in the human soul that has gone profoundly wrong that results in all these difficult and sinful problems. You can apply it to homosexuality, eating disorders, panic attacks, or whatever else. What is going on in the human soul, and how does the bible give us categories for understanding this?
So I think my major contribution is a hermeneutic that allows me to develop categories for understanding that don’t come across as proof-texting or merely exhortational, but come across as liberating and releasing. I want to say to the homosexual, “If you give into homosexuality, you are missing out on the incredible wonder of the design that God had in mind in making you a man.” And I’m appealing to the fact that God’s plan is perfect, and God’s plan is wonderful. God is good, and for the homosexual to pursue satisfaction by looking at God and saying, “the dickens with you,” that is sin. The essential matter is not just the fact that a man is doing things with a man that are inappropriate and wrong and sinful. That’s sinful, but the core sin is turning to God and saying, “You are not the source of joy, you are not the essence of goodness. There’s a greater good than you.” This is the sin of Adam and Eve, who decided that there was a greater good than God. So we have to get down to the essential sin in dealing with of all these problems, and I think my hermeneutic, which is very non-linear and categorical, allows for a richer understanding of the human condition, and remains biblical, but in the minds of some looks like it’s forgetting the Bible and going towards psychology. But my understanding of homosexuality, of anorexia, of multiple personality is all dependent on biblical categories and not upon psychological research, even though I find secular research to be very analytic and the secular thinkers to be very provocative. They make me think and ask questions that I wouldn’t otherwise ask, but never would I regard them as authoritative.
Nate: The biblical counseling movement often emphasizes the doctrine of sufficiency of scripture, often charging those who disagree with them of compromising it in some way. Could you please sketch in how you would formulate this doctrine?
Dr. Crabb: I personally believe in the authority and, defined well, the inerrancy of scripture. Whatever the bible says is what God says. I have a very high view of Scripture, and I don’t see how it could be higher. Probably in my early thirties I began to take seriously and began to understand the debate about the sufficiency of Scripture. I think the sufficiency of scripture is a crucial doctrine for counseling, provided that it’s very carefully understood and defined. For some people, the sufficiency of scripture seems to imply that you can arrive at the worldview teachings of scripture and knowledge of the human soul, without digging for it, and without careful thought. You can’t just memorize verses, you just can’t come up with your creed or your doctrinal statements to do that. You can start there, but you can’t stop there. So the sufficiency of scripture has really become reductionistic. One of the things I don’t like is these Bibles that have these lists of every problem known to man, and then ten verses for every problem. That’s not biblical sufficiency, that’s biblical perversion. I think a lot of biblical perversion has taken place in the name of biblical sufficiency.
Biblical sufficiency to me is to assume that the Bible contains everything you need to know to glorify God in this world, and that’s the summum bonum, the greatest good. The greatest good is not that I feel wonderful, and have great self-esteem, and not even that I have a great marriage, have wonderful kids and make a lot of money… that’s the goods that all of us are living for, but that’s wrong. The greatest good in life is to glorify God, and—I’m a John Piper fan—the greatest good in life is to glorify God, not “and enjoy him forever,” but “by enjoying him forever.” So if in fact the greatest good is to glorify God – and that’s the whole reason for everything He created – and if we glorify God by becoming like Jesus, and if that results in everything we were destined for, then in becoming like Jesus, we enter into the Trinitarian relationship. When I become like Jesus, then I experience the love of the Father the way Jesus did, and I experience love for the Father the way Jesus did, and this is final reality… this is what life is… this is John 17 where Jesus said, “This is life, that they may know God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” So the whole point of life is to enter into the Father-Son relationship through the power of the Spirit.
So if I understand that as a big category – and I believe that the Bible directs us to that – then no longer does biblical sufficiency become merely a moral lifestyle, merely a bunch of verses that help me stop having affairs, or help me be more honest, or help me get over my problem of procrastination, or lying, or sexual addiction… all those things will become fruits of becoming like Jesus, but the real summum bonum is not just a moral lifestyle, because pagans can pull that off without Jesus. I really like the Chesterton quote that I mentioned last night, that Satan’s masterpiece is not the drunk, it’s the Pharissee, it’s the elder in the church who never looks at pornography and is really proud of it, and keeps his wife under control, and keeps his kids from doing bad things. And he’s the “good” Christian, and I think, “No, you’re a failure because you’re not entering into the Father-Son relationship of the Trinity. So biblical sufficiency to me is just a rich understanding of the text that addresses the core issues of the human soul. Who is this human being sitting across from me who bears the image of God? If it’s a man, what does that mean? If it’s a woman, what does that mean? What’s gone wrong? What’s my hamartiology, my theology of sin? Piper defines sin in a personal letter to me as a treasonous pursuit of satisfaction apart from God. Now is that anthropocentric, because he’s still pursuing his satisfaction? It’s a little tricky there, because I don’t think that the goal is my satisfaction. The goal is God’s glory. But when I live for his glory, I’m a winner, because I get everything He has to give, because He is a self-communicating and loving God. And when you live for His glory, it’s like a kid who lives for the pleasure of his wonderful dad. The more you live for the pleasure of your wonderful Dad, the more you’re the winner, because your Dad is pouring His love into you the entire time. So biblical sufficiency to me is a matter of categories; theological categories that allow me to understand the human condition and help me follow the Spirit in healing individuals.
Let me say one more thing, and I’m not sure how I want to say this here. I think there’s a great deal of prejudice, if prejudice could be defined as “prejudgment,” in the whole arena of what form of counseling really honors the scriptures. I think there’s a lot of really good people who are saying, “We want with all our hearts to honor scripture, and to honor Christ, to honor the necessity of the Holy Spirit, and to honor the glory of the Father.” But we make so many assumptions without dialogue. And that’s prejudice. It’s no different from racial prejudice. It’s hideous. I think that before we have any basis for criticizing, we need to be in dialogue and discover what the real heart of the other person is. We need to recognize that a lot of what results in prejudice and prejudgment really becomes a matter of pride and not matter of living for the Lord. Lewis talks to a graduating class of Cambridge about how we can create an inner ring, where he said the greatest danger in our Christian spiritual journey is the desire to be in the inner ring, to find something that makes us “in” so that we can exclude others. We will be in and others will be out and we will take joy in that. And that’s illegitimate. Whatever inner ring we belong to, there should be a humble desire for others to join the party that we’re enjoying, as opposed to, “Well I’m right and you’re wrong,” or “Well that person ought to go to hell for the way they’re living,” or “Well that person’s a bit wrong in their theology.” If it’s said with that kind of an attitude, it’s certainly not of the Lord. Now there’s nothing wrong with holy anger. We need to point out sin clearly and boldly, but with a burden for the sinner. Yes, of course it’s wrong, and of course there’s right and wrong. I’m not so clearly postmodern that there’s not right and wrong. But I would like to see an attitude that’s more irenic without compromising our concern for scripture, and the only way I know to achieve that is to engage in a lot of dialogue and to recognize that the motivation behind many of our customs often has less to do with our commitment to the authority of scripture and more to do with our pride.